Danny reclaimed his health from CFS and chronic pain (a TMS recovery story)

Liz: Yeah. So can you talk about your life before you came down with CFS? How did that happen? 

Danny: Yeah. So I was living a very full life, a very, uh, healthy life. I didn’t have any health problems before. I was a D one athlete. I was a D one golfer.

And playing as an amateur in professional tournaments and a robust social life. I went to USC, difficult academics. 

I was doing quite a lot and eventually I had a bunch of kind of nervous system stressors, including, you know, relationship problems and pressure from golf, pressure from school, and all these different types of stressors — for my nervous system.

Which in retrospect was normal for me, but for a nervous system, it can only take so much. 

And so I wasn’t being very kind to myself. 

I had perfectionist tendencies, catastrophizing tendencies, controlling tendencies, a lot of things that tend to sensitize the nervous system. 

So it all kind of made sense that when I got mono, when I was 21 in September of 2022, this symptom spiral started getting me into this, I guess you could call it CFS or TMS kind of mind-body loop.

So that’s, that’s all it started for me. 

[Liz note: CFS stands for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome also known as ME/CFS. Danny will explain TMS, which is a mind-body neurocircuit-based theory, later in our interview.]

Liz : And I know a lot of people who have post viral illness, whether you call it CFS or TMS, mono is a common trigger. 

But it’s also common for the body to be in a state of stress. And of course, if we’re being perfectionist and putting high standards on ourself, that can be a lot.

And also emotional stress, you mentioned relationship stress. So that can also be another stress. So when our immune system is trying to heal from mono, which almost every college can get that if they didn’t get it when they were little. It can really knock you down. And I assume you probably didn’t immediately go like, “Oh, this is CFS or TMS?”

Liz: And I assume you probably didn’t immediately go like, Oh, this is CFS, CMS.

Did you have any inclination what it could be early on? And did the doctors have any answers from the standard medical system? 

Danny: So for me, I kind of immediately knew it was different. It was definitely more sick than I had ever felt before. I mean, I had different symptoms, and I determined it was mono pretty early.

And then I kind of went down the medical gauntlet, and then I saw infectious disease doctors who diagnosed me after a couple months of having these symptoms with what they call chronic EBV, which I now have an understanding is more of just, a symptom of CFS or something that they just find and they label you as this.

But yeah, I was labeled with chronic Epstein Barr Virus.

I didn’t get labeled with CFS until about a year into my journey from one of my doctors in Seattle. 

By that time, I had an understanding that it wasn’t something viral or some sort of chronic infection. I kind of had an understanding that it was something to do with stress in my nervous system.

I didn’t know exactly what and it was difficult at that time, and it’s especially difficult for people who have CFS because researching and being on YouTube.

For example, screens can be stimulating or like reading, if they don’t have the capacity to read. 

So it’s actually very difficult to find the right treatment. 

And I was lucky to have a mother who was reading up on this stuff and trying to get a better understanding along the way. That was actually a very important part of my kind of understanding of what chronic pain and TMS and what CFS was.

Danny: So that was helpful because at the time I was very. Bed bound and I wasn’t able to read. I wasn’t able to look at screens for a long time. 

Primary symptoms were chronic pain, fatigue, post-exertional malaise, stomach issues. So, along with the whole host, I’m sure you understand of other interesting symptoms that come up along the way.

Liz: Did you have any really crazy symptoms that was just like so weird that you were like, what is this one? 

Danny: Where do I start? Yes, the one that comes to mind is frequent urination and like bladder issues, and that was definitely a weird one and something that was like really confusing for me and it’s actually something I hear quite a lot – bladder issues. I have a better understanding of what happens now, but essentially your bladder becomes sensitized, and it’s just another symptom.

So that was kind of my, one of my weirdest ones, along the way. 

Liz: Yeah, I had that, too. But I was extremely thirsty as well, so I would have to pee, like four times a night. 

Yeah. So you were 21, 22 at the time, and you are bed bound. While your friends are living their best life, YOLO, I don’t know what the Gen Z kids say these days, but they were living their Brat Summer or whatever it was, and living their life – and you are in bed and your mom has to read for you.

That must have been really tough. 

Danny: I think that something people forget during this journey is, kind of regret toward the lost time and that urgency to get back to life and feeling like you’re missing out on something. 

And what you’re supposed to be doing, kind of like this fictional life you created between when you first got sick and where you are now and like what you could have done that really isn’t real, but it’s like more of a conception of what you could be doing.

And I definitely experienced that because I was playing some of the best golf in my life and I was set up to graduate that year and you know, all my friends were out hanging out and living a full life, and I was essentially stuck in this quite awful situation, a very difficult quality of life, and yeah, missing out on everything on top of that.

So that was, that was difficult. 

Liz: My heart goes out to you and it’s just amazing that you’re here sitting in front of me today. I’m just so inspired already of where you’ve been and being vulnerable and sharing what hell you went through and to give others hope.

Liz: Um, so you got the chronic EBV label.

Interestingly, my infectious disease doctor told me my acute EBV reactivations were false positives. That infections had a beginning and an end, and he said it was nothing. 

So I don’t know which is worse. Getting told you have chronic EBV and it’s this infection you have to kill forever, or being told it’s nothing.

Did you try supplements to kill the stuff? Did you do that route? 

Danny: Yes, I took all sorts of antivirals including, you know, some of them were Valtrex, low dose naltrexone. I’ve been to my fair share of doctors, trust me, and naturopaths. So, you know, my bill for supplements is Well beyond thousands of dollars.

So my mom actually still has all of my supplements, my supplement box, back home. It’s more of a bin than a box, but it’s filled to the brim with different things I tried along the way. 

But you know, none of them helped at all. And so that’s when I really started to look for alternative healing modalities.

Danny: And so that’s when I really started to look for alternative healing modalities.

And it took a while, but I kind of started to get down the right path about a year and a half into my journey. 

Liz: Oh wow. Okay. A year and a half. That’s still a long time, but it’s sooner than I hear people who are older. It takes eight years to find the right information out there, but you were able to find something or maybe was it your mom or both of you?

What did you start to look at that ultimately led you to the paradigm that worked for you? 

Danny: So I think it was starting with researching chronic pain, and I think that’s where I found Dan Buglio’s videos initially, and then I started to learn about TMS, and at that time already, I had a somewhat conception of what CFS was.

[Liz note: I recorded a brief summary of TMS, so people who are not familiar knows what we’re talking about.]

Liz: So before we continue our chat, I just wanted to come on and clarify two terms, which we mentioned CFS. We’re talking about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, also known as ME/CFS, the cardinal symptom being post-exertional malaise or crashes. And I share more in detail about it on my website. healwithliz.com. 

TMS, we’re talking about Tension Myositis Syndrome.

So that’s what Danny refers to his condition as. And TMS is Dr. John Sarno’s theory that chronic pain is caused by restricted blood flow between the brain and the body. And he believed that the root cause is stress and repressed emotions like anger, et cetera, and that we can heal. 

Rather than a person just having permanent structural damage.

And future practitioners inspired by Sarno have since applied his theory of chronic pain to healing from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and other chronic conditions. So since came out with this theory, there’s been several biomedical studies that have shown evidence of reduced cortical blood flow in CFS and long COVID patients.

And now how do we treat that? Well there’s many potential different ways, but there’s evidence that Sarno’s Mind Body Approach is actually helping, and there was a recent study done by Dr. Mike Donnino, a Harvard Emergency Medicine professor. His study was about the psychophysiologic symptom relief therapy showing significant effects in a positive way for people with Long COVID to reduce their symptoms.

And that includes, the crash. That was one of the symptoms they studied. So if you’re interested in learning about TMS, I’m not involved with this in any way, but I’m just sharing some resources because it’s one topic mentioned in our chat. 

There is Howard Schubiner’s book Unlearn Your Pain and it can be applied to CFS, Nicole Sach’s podcast, The Cure for Chronic Pain, and Rebecca Tolan’s website, and she herself healed from CFS, and Dan Buglio on YouTube.

But just wanted to clarify those two terms in case you were curious. And this interview will continue and it gets great.

Danny: My biggest turning point during my recovery, I was actually admitted to an inpatient facility in Malibu, where I started pain reprocessing therapy, and it was a helpful space where I was able to understand the mind body connection a little bit more.

I was there for a couple of months and then, after a couple of months there, you know, just giving me like a little boost. 

It wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t fully recovered once I left the facility, but it put me in a place of a little bit more functionality, and a little bit more understanding of what I was going through.

And looking back on it, I think this is an interesting point that I wasn’t necessarily ready for the information going there. 

I think that you can only help someone as much as they want to be helped or they’re ready to be helped. And at that time, when I went to the inpatient facility, I wasn’t necessarily completely prepared for the information.

So I maybe didn’t get as much out of it as I could have, but I just certainly still did get a lot out of it. 

Liz: Yes, so I totally agree with you. You have to be ready for it. And thanks for admitting that because when I tried one of the nervous system programs, I really wasn’t ready. I was still googling for all the supplements and it made sense to me.

It definitely planted a seed, but I wasn’t fully committed. It has to be the right time. You have to be in the right frame of mind for it. 

Danny: Yeah, I definitely think that it’s a buy in to what’s going on is extremely important and along with the belief that recovery is possible. 

And I think It’s extremely difficult to implement these different treatments if you’re not ready for the information, and you’re also putting your hand in different cookie jars of like, “Oh, maybe it’s this,” “Maybe it’s this” still, and you’re like still grasping onto that one diagnosis that that doctor gave you, and you’re not fully bought into the mind-body TMS space.

So I think it’s very important to be ready for the information. 

Liz: Yeah, and I know there’s a few people out there who might be watching who they might have been ready and they might have tried something that might not have worked for them. So my heart goes out to you if you were ready for something and it didn’t work, this whole journey is a process.

This pain reprocessing inpatient center in Malibu helped you a little bit, but you were still very ill. What was the next step or next thing that you found helpful? 

Danny: Yeah, so once I left the inpatient facility, I was at one of their outpatient houses, and that’s where I started a recovery program specific for CFS.

Danny: Yeah, so once I left the inpatient facility, I was at one of their outpatient houses, and that’s where I started a recovery program specific for CFS.

And it was, helpful for me because there are certain things within the mind body space that aren’t addressed specific for CFS because people with CFS typically have lower capacities so this program really helped me kind of level up or have a better understanding of how to increase my capacity. 

So my personal philosophy on recovery is that you have to have mindset and you have to have structure to recover.

So it’s a mixture of building your capacity very slowly, but also having the right mindset. So I feel like at the inpatient center, I was really able to start to cultivate that mindset part. But once I joined a recovery program, that kind of assisted me in learning how to build my capacity. 

And I think you need both of those in order to make progress.

Liz: Yes. And I think that tactical know how. And you, of course, still have to listen to your own body. So whatever program you do, I strongly urge people to still listen to their own body. 

But it can be really helpful if someone who’s been there and helps you navigate how to actually increase your activity, because centers that are just mainly focused on the chronic pain issue, they haven’t had that post-exertional malaise experience.

And so it does require nuance. 

Danny: It does definitely require nuance. And I think that maybe everyone watching this has tried whatever they call graded exercise therapy and kind of using a PT approach. But there definitely is an aspect of recovery that involves listening to your body and kind of using your body’s feedback as a way to understand where your baseline’s at.

And post exertional malaise is, it’s tricky. And it’s not necessarily that something that everyone in the mind-body space addresses. And that’s why I think that CFS is a little bit of a different one when it comes to that. And long COVID kind of falls into that group.

But it definitely takes listening to your body. 

Liz: Yes. Ooh. Okay. So what program was it? I’m just curious. That helped you. 

Danny: So I joined CFS Recovery. So I think really important for me was really buying into a program. And so I made a promise to myself that I would stick with this program until I recovered.

Because I think that It’s very easy for you to, you know, have a good program and then it doesn’t work for a couple weeks or you don’t see progress for a couple weeks and then you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to switch to this other thing.” And you just constantly are going in circles and like listening to different opinions and everyone kind of has a slightly different take on it.

And then my basic philosophy behind this was I played in professional golf tournaments and was a young golfer. And I thought about it and I was like, “I don’t have 10 different swing coaches. I don’t have 10 different swing coaches telling me what to do. So why would I listen to 10 different coaches or different philosophies?”

So if I just were to stick with one until I recovered. Even if it wasn’t perfect, it would work. And so that was actually a really helpful thing for me is to commit to a process and stop kind of looking at what the next person’s doing and, you know, that person used this to recover, and this person used this to recover.

It’s just like, you kind of just need to simplify it. 

Liz: I like that golf coach analogy though. It makes me laugh inside because my family were golfers. No one’s professional, but my dad, every time he has an issue with golf. He gets a new putter. So that’s the opposite. [Laughs] He just goes and gets a new one.

So that’s not what we want to do here. [Laughs.] Golf jokes. 

Um… all right. And that’s Miguel. And I know Junior is there, too. That’s Miguel’s program. 

Danny: Yeah. 

Liz note: This section is for full transparency and Danny’s perspective. We are well aware many people do not have personal savings or family financial support to afford more expensive programs. This blog is independent and does not endorse any single program over another. There are many lower cost programs. Miguel, the program creator of the program Danny did, also shares lots of advice for free on his CFS Recovery YouTube channel.

Liz: I had Miguel on. He had a really powerful story. Very inspiring guy. I know that his program is a little bit more money. I don’t know if he’s changed the prices now.

Can you speak on that? Yeah.

Danny: No, it’s okay. You know, if we want to talk dollars and cents, I think there’s a basic membership. It’s 300 a month where you get access to all of his like videos and philosophy and the group calls. I believe there’s four to six group calls a week. 

And then I actually joined the year long thing.

Like I said, because I committed to it, it was 6,000 for the year, where you get more one on one coaching and you get access to a chat where you’re able to communicate with your coach throughout the week. And I was just very, very committed to this. I decided I was going to commit until I recovered.

So I decided to go and get the, I guess they call it a platinum membership. So I went through that. I understand that not everyone has these resources, but I was spending so much on supplements and different medical care. 

I was just like, well, this is nothing compared to what I was spending before. 

Liz: So thank you for mentioning that because I’m like, okay, “Well, how much did you spend on this functional medicine doctor?”

Oh, $15,000. Or, “I mortgaged my home so I could get vitamin IVs and colonics at the local wellness spa.” [No judgement; many of us were there. Also my heart goes out to people who cannot afford anything beyond what the government provides; if they even provide anything at all.] 

Yeah, so, you don’t have to throw out any dollar signs, but I just want to say, a lot of us have spent tens of thousands, maybe another zero, trying everything to get better, trying these functional clinics, and then ending up back in square one.

But I also understand that these nervous system programs aren’t covered by insurance. 

Danny: Not yet. 

Liz: And it is a lot of money, so there are many options out there, but I do think there is a value in these group programs for people who like that camaraderie, like that accountability that can have a positive effect.

I know there is another program, it’s called CFS Health by Toby Morrison, but there’s more nervous system focus in the CFS Recovery, I think. 

Danny: I think that you should definitely do your research, and, you know, most of these health programs have a YouTube or an Instagram or whatever, and it’s very important that you are really bought in to what they say before you commit to these, because I understand that.

It costs money. It’s cost and investment, and this is money you earned. And so you want to make sure that you’re investing in something worthwhile. And so I think it’s really helpful to invest your time into seeing whether you really agree with what they’re saying. And then from there, you can decide whether you want to invest your money into their program.

Liz: Such wise words. And sometimes people’s opinions can change of the program leaders. I’ve spoken to people who are older, who’ve had, I mean, CFS for decades and a lady, she was like, “I hated Gupta. He was a know-it-all.” And then she just one day came at it with a different perspective and like “Oh, this is a really nice guy.”

So people’s opinions can change over time, but yeah, you have to resonate with the person, not feel pushed into it by anyone. You have to be like, “This resonates with me.” And I do have a programs guide and I do compare to different programs. And it actually includes lots of details about the programs. I just don’t remember them all off the top of my head.

It’s like a 200 page guide, but you really still have to identify which ones you want based on the price and based on what areas they cover. But then also watching some of their videos. Can I listen to this person? Does their style and their story resonate with me?

Liz: So as you’re applying the program, can you give me an idea of what recovery looks like?

Maybe you’re couch-bound at this point. What does recovery look like from being in that? 

Danny: So it’s a very slow process and I don’t think that I ever had really a day where I could look back to the day before and I was like, wow, I’m doing so much more than the day before, but I think that I would see progress more on a month to month basis.

And I think that that’s something that I hear quite frequently within the space is that it’s a slow process. And you’re not necessarily going to see changes overnight, but I think on a month to month basis, or I kind of say, if you’re looking back two to three months and you aren’t a little further along than you were before, I think it’s time to kind of reassess what you’re doing a little bit and think about, okay, why didn’t I make as much progress as I could have?

So when I was first, you know, couch bound and building capacity, it was very slow. So I think kind of at the beginning with CFS. And with given proposed exertional malaise, it’s a little more of an active process and being more kind of definite about what you’re going to do using intuition, but I think getting a clear idea about what you’re going to do during the day that can keep you from having a big flare up.

I think little flare ups are actually key to recovery. I think. They’re an integral part of recovery because it’s very difficult to expand capacity without little flare ups along the way and if you respond well to those flare ups, I think you level up. But it was basically a very slow process and I essentially had a general schedule of what I do in the day.

Without causing a big flare up. And I was really all about really consistent, steady progress instead of, I use the analogy of a bench press. If I’m trying to get back to normal, or maybe I was at a two 25 bench press before, and I’m currently at a 50 pound bench press, I’m not immediately going to two 25, I’m trying to like stay at 50 for a while.

Maybe work my way up to 55. And if you think about a bench press, it doesn’t take a week to get from 50 to 225. It takes a matter of many, many months. And so I think when you look at recovery and nervous system regulation as trading it like a muscle, like you need to slowly build that safety, slowly build your capacity and really falling in love with the, with the long process and the slow process and the sustainable progress.

I think that’s really important. 

Liz: Yes, the nervous system, metaphorically, is like a muscle, but you didn’t start with bench pressing. So what did you start with? Was it like walking to the kitchen? Can you just paint the life? So what did it look like in the first few months when you’re like, oh, yeah, I can do this.

Liz: What were some of your early wins? 

Danny: My early wins were, so I was able to do things, but I wasn’t able to do things and not crash afterwards. So it was about finding what I could do without having a big crash. And so for me, it was maybe a walk around the block once a day. I was able to do that without a big flare.

And it was, Calling a friend once a day and kind of getting that regulation and, uh, having some more fun and fulfillment in my day and having something more to look forward to. And maybe a month along the way, I was able to walk up the stairs once. So my capacity was, some people were definitely lower.

I was able to go to and from the bathroom, and I was able to occasionally walk decent distances, but it was very, very limited. Not necessarily by my muscle’s ability to do it. But the crash afterwards or the symptom flare up. So my early wins were, you know, little walks around the block, little walks, like five minutes, a few minutes.

Liz: Yeah. And from being a D1 athlete, wow. To a win of walking around the block. But if you’ve been bed-bound, that is a huge accomplishment. And to be able to say. This is enough. And I’m sure there’s sometimes you might have gone too far and then 

Danny: There was definitely times where I was able to do things, but I wasn’t able to do things without a crash afterwards.

And it did take me a period of probably a year and a half to understand the correlation between stimulus and what my nervous system, my brain was able to handle at that point and the symptoms afterwards. 

So it took a while to figure out what my baseline capacity is at. And then once I understood where my capacity is at, on days where I felt just 10 percent better, I was able to maybe just get up like one more stair on the recovery journey and just increase my capacity just a little bit. 

Liz (2): Yeah. So how are you able to build that resilience in your body? What are some of the practices to be able to do that? Because you had clarified earlier, it’s not just GET, just keep on going, like this.

How did you build your threshold of what your body could recover from? 

Danny: So I’ll answer that question with. An example of how I go over my food intolerances. So one of my stories was I had drastic food intolerances because I had migraines 27 out of 30 days. I was convinced that certain foods would cause migraines and give me what would you call stomach burning and bloating.

And so I was only eating fish tacos for about a year. That’s literally all the food I ate because I was convinced. By these doctors that these foods weren’t safe. And so it was kind of a self fulfilling prophecy where I would have symptoms when I ate these foods. So what I did to expose myself to other foods was I started really, really small and I built my way up.

For example, I’ll take an apple. So I’d start with just a sliver of apple and then. In the next couple days, I would just take a little bite, and then a few days later I would take a bigger bite, and then by, um, a couple weeks I was able to eat a whole entire apple without symptoms, but I was only able to do that with messages of safety, so I was able to do that, but while I was doing it, I was Gave myself a message of safety of this is okay.

I know my stomach’s fine. I know that this is just a nervous system sensitivity and my brain’s just misinterpreting these signals. I’m fine. So what I did was I paired mindset along with the structure of slowly building my capacity for these things. So that’s essentially how I applied. I applied this idea to the rest of my recovery.

So as I was slowly building capacity, very slowly, I was. Also pairing it with the right mindset and message of safety and being unbothered by my symptoms and responding in a calm way when symptoms did come up. 

Liz: Yes, and thank you for giving that clear example. The food one is such a big one because The food fears are so real.

I would say that was the hardest thing to do. And of all the things, the most PTSD stuff was the food because it was like my identity. I was like a garbage disposal, having everything on Christmas, could eat and drink whatever. And then I was like Debbie Downer. I could only eat plain chicken and boiled leek.

Danny: That’s a terrible diet. I’m sorry. 

Liz: I know, I know. 

Danny: That sounds awful. 

Liz: I know, but the functional wellness doctors had put this in my mind, I’m still a little weird about gluten. Cause of what I read, but I can eat anything now. But I, same, I’m not actively eating gluten.

Danny: I will add kind of a message of hope for the people out there with food sensitivities. 

I would actually posit that food sensitivities are, at least in my experience, the easiest thing to recover from once you have the right information and implement the right structure and mindset. I was actually able to get to every single food within a month and a half with those messages of safety and slowly building things up.

I think that I often use a story of your body can adapt to poison. There was a famous Greek philosopher who slowly microdosed poison in his stomach. And so he could share a bottle of wine with his rival. And so his rival died from a poison overdose, but he was immune to it. So your stomach is one of the wonders of the world.

It’s able to digest amazing stuff. And I think your stomach. Can adapt to pretty much anything. And so that’s what I would say for a message of hope to people. 

Liz: I think that’s also a Princess Bride scene. The scene where [the main character] adapted to the poison. 

Danny: Great throwback. Maybe I’ll start using that as an example.

Liz: Yes. 

Liz: [Recorded after our interview.] I just wanted to come on and say that reflecting back what Danny said was actually also true for me because once I did start adding in new foods it was easy. It was just that starting. I had big hang ups because I had such fear from earlier bad experiences and I’m not saying that. fear caused those horrific symptoms initially, but I still had the fear for several years after and I had to resolve the fear.

And I think time also helped. And it really was just a call with coach. I had fully physically healed, but I still had the restricted diet. And it was just a call with her saying that, “yeah, I have people who are also eating two or three foods and now can eat anything. It’s your brain.” And just hearing that knowledge she gave me a plan to, I incorporated some humor.

She had me blowing a raspberries when I was making some mung-bean pasta. That’s what I started with. Because I hadn’t had grains in three years, and I was just laughing so hard, and it ended up being pretty joyful experience for me to add back in new foods. I didn’t add in everything at once, but it was a fun process actually.

But yeah, so I just wanted to add that in. 

Liz: [Back to interview] Okay. Yes, so thank you for that message of hope. 

So Let’s talk about six months in so what were some of your wins? Maybe some of your challenges as you start to build your capacity 

Danny: Yeah, so my timeline was a year and a half in is where I went to the inpatient center [the pain reprocessing center in Malibu]. And then around there, I found this recovery program [CFS Recovery].

And then six months from that, I was doing a lot. I was playing in professional golf tournaments. I actually did a trip around a solo Europe trip for a month. I was able to, with these right mindset and structure, build my capacity relatively quickly. And I still had symptoms, but I think along the recovery journey, as you build your capacity, your symptoms naturally lower because you’re sending less danger signals and you’re more of a normal person.

And so there isn’t as much of a need for symptoms. It was like, as my capacity rose, my symptoms went down. And obviously my capacity is quite high now. And my symptoms are quite low. And I think that’s generally how it goes because people who have the lowest capacities tend to have the highest symptoms.

So, yeah. 

Liz: Yeah, once you find out what works for you, it can all happen fast. But as you said, it was still a gradual process. It wasn’t overnight. Like, some programs might promise. But it wasn’t forever either. And thank you for also clarifying that timeline. It was a year and a half in, and then the six months [upward trajectory].

Yeah. So thank you for that.

Liz: So do you see older people in these programs having success who might’ve tried a bunch of things? I’d love to just hear about that and the types of people you’ve met in the program that you found helpful. 

Danny: Yeah. So I had in my cohort or in my group, certainly someone who was 80 years old and who had had this for 30 years and she was able to make a full recovery where she was before.

Not necessarily like, she’s not kickboxing like me, she’s not working out like an hour and a half a day, but she’s certainly like made what she considers a full recovery.

I think there’s so many stories out there of people who have this for 20 30 years and make a full recovery once they kind of have that It’s a little bit of an ego death where, okay, what I’ve been doing over the last, however many years hasn’t been working.

I’m going to buy into this and commit to this. And it does work. I see no reason why older people, we all have a nervous system. We all have a brain. 

I see no reason why they aren’t able to make a full recovery too. And I’ve seen that. 

Liz: Oh, that’s so inspiring. I’m glad I just asked that question. Wow.

Yeah. I love what you said, an ego death, the way we were living our lives before and the way we were going about recovery before until what ultimately works for us. That is. It’s something I’ve heard before. 

Danny: And some people go about it differently. So some people will, if you think of a capacity standpoint, some people will be doing too little and will be taking kind of the, I just need to rest all day.

And they just rest all day to avoid symptoms. And some people are in kind of the push crash cycle where they’re going above their capacity and then they have flare ups. And so it kind of creates a circle. So It’s just finding that middle ground and being more in tune with your body and where your capacity is at and slowly building it.

I think it’s really important. 

Liz: Yeah, that is so important. I also think people might not always be aware of what can be contributing to stress and their nervous system. Have you observed that? 

Danny: Yeah, there’s certainly a lot of different factors that can cause stress. I think that for even something like post exertional malaise, it can be caused by, in my experience, by physical stress, as in like, I went up too many set of stairs or something like that.

Or it can be caused by emotional events where, um, you get into an angry conversation or, um, your family comes into town or you have a family gathering or whatever is going Maybe emotionally stressful for you, so it can be caused by all sorts of stuff. 

Liz: Yeah, I do think everyone knows the physical overexertion leads to crashes with ME/CFS and related conditions and Long COVID.

People who have PEM. But yeah, family coming into town, holidays, it can be crazy and you don’t want to live in a bubble for the rest of your life, but sometimes setting those boundaries or retreating can be helpful because it can be a lot when yeah. 

Danny: I think that a necessary part of recovery is what they call in CFS recovery, grey theory.

And it’s the idea that if you have a family gathering, there aren’t just the options of going or not going. There’s an option of, for example, let’s say it’s an hour obligation. You could. If you’re feeling like you can take 10 minutes and that’s what you want to do, you can go for 10 minutes and then leave.

You could also, maybe if you’re feeling a little better, you can go for 30 minutes and then leave. So it’s about slowly building that capacity. And I think a lot of people kind of get into this black and white thinking. I think it’s an inherent personality trait of people who tend to get CFS is they’re black and white thinkers where they think that I either have to do it or don’t do it.

But I think there’s a middle ground where that’s where really recovery happens and you’re able to slowly build capacity. 

Liz: Whoa. powerful stuff and also so directly relevant. It’s being able to say, you know what, “I’m going to spend 20 minutes, and then I’m going to go downstairs and take a nap.” 

That’s where my bed was downstairs [in my parents’ home for holiday visits], but there’s pressure to pretend you’re enjoying eating the cookies when you feel like you’re dying, and you can’t even eat the cookies because you don’t want to be a downer, but it’s knowing like you can actually say, “This is what I’m giving: 20 minutes of my time.”

Then I’m going to rest. Don’t care what you say, this is enough. I’m judging me, you can say whatever. 

Danny: And prioritizing your own recovery is essential for recovery. I think that if you’re putting other people’s priorities over your own recovery, I think your recovery is maybe the most important thing in your life right now.

And so prioritizing that and, you know, not caring what other people think. If someone thinks that maybe you’re just depressed because you look fine or whatever. And they’re like, I don’t understand why you have to leave. Eventually you’re just like, I don’t care. I’m prioritizing myself. So 

Liz: That is such a turning point, I think.

And that’s so wonderful. I discovered on my own, but it’s so wonderful that Miguel’s program is encouraging that and the group and you’re patting each other on the back for doing that, because that would have been nice versus feeling just like the bad sister or yeah. But there’s been times where I started to put these connections together, where I had to be like, you know what, friends, I’m taking an Uber two blocks.

I’m going to have to take the Uber two blocks home and they’re like, “Oh, it’s just a little bit more of a..” No. And it can be embarrassing setting boundaries. But that’s cool that there’s a place where this is encouraged and then let life and recovery happens in that gray area versus the black and white.

All right. Okay. This is really good stuff.

Liz: So yeah, again, I’m so grateful you reached out and yeah. Can you talk about your life now? What’s going on? 

Danny: Yeah, so I’m currently in school. I’m finishing up my degree. I had to drop out of school because of this CFS situation. And so I’m currently back in school.

I’m kickboxing twice a day. And then I spend most of my time actually developing my YouTube channel. I have a YouTube channel, Chronic to Cured, and I kind of share what I learned along my recovery journey, and I actually do free coaching as well just to help people, because I know that a lot of people have financial difficulties with coaching and as I gain experience. 

And because I love doing it, I just help people with sharing what I do on my YouTube and getting people to understand the general structure for recovery because recovery is as simple and as complex as you want to make it.

So I choose to make it as simple as possible. And I share videos on getting your mindset in the right place. And then I also have more weekly videos on whatever I want to talk about. But, essentially, it’s really fun to be able to pass on what I learned from my experience onto other people. 

Liz: Wow, that’s so wonderful that you have this drive to give back and to share your knowledge and also to simplify it for people because there are some programs out there that there’s a lot going on and a lot of people do respond to a simpler approach, especially if you’ve got all these symptoms and cognitive overwhelm and brain fog.

Just being clear on what you can do to help recover. Yeah, that’s really awesome. 

Note: Since our interview, Danny has won a professional golf tournament and has been focusing more on golf than adding to his YouTube and recovery coaching. 

Liz: So I just like to ask people who are on my channel, what is your final message to people watching today? 

Danny: I would say I believe that belief is a big part of recovery and believing that you have CFS and a mind-body condition.

I don’t think that you’re able to make as much progress as you could if you aren’t fully bought into you have a mind-body condition. If you’re still kind of attaching to these different diagnoses you have. And so I would just offer as a message of hope that a lot of people recovered, and so why can’t you?

And it’s easy to think that, “Oh, I have this symptom, I have this symptom, I have this symptom.” It’s very common to hear people saying like, “Oh, you know, this person recovered, but I have this, so I can’t.” And if you understand that at the end of the day, it’s all just different manifestations of a hypersensitive nervous system and a hypervigilant brain.

And you’ve ruled out everything medical, then I think there’s a lot of space for recovery. But it’s about being in a place where you are going to put your ego aside and being like this program or this method works. I’m going to commit to this. What I’ve been doing hasn’t been working. And just being really prepared for the information.

Liz: Such wise words. Some might listening to it might say it could even be harsh, because it’s some tough love here. 

Belief does matter, and it can be hard, especially if you’re in certain forms which say there is no hope, and it’s not saying that these conditions aren’t very real physical conditions, because we have lived them and had all the symptoms, but we’re saying that the roots has to do with the stress response, the mind-body connection, and that constantly going down different rabbit holes, taking this supplement, taking that supplement when the recovery stories 90 percent of them or higher are about addressing the nervous system.

And this approach, it’s all going to be a different approach, and how we apply it is going to be different.

Danny: I have a couple things that come to mind when you say that, and I think of mindset as a very critical part of recovery and I think that if you imagine your mindset right now, it may be a very small tree.

It was just planted. Maybe if there’s a storm, it weathers in the wind, but I think to get to recovery, you need to create a giant oak tree. I think you need to be in a space where no matter what a doctor tells you or whatever a forum says, like, you are going to recover. You know what’s happening. You know, you have a hypersensitive nervous system and an overactive brain.

You can recover. So for example, there’s nothing anyone could tell me right now that could make me. Insecure about what has been going on or what’s going on. And I think that’s extremely important is building a really, really strong mindset for recovery. 

Liz: Ooh, yes. A hyper sense of brain and nervous system and addressing those and supporting those.

Yes. Thank you for sharing that clear message. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your powerful story. And one of my most powerful stories, someone who is bed-bound and couch bound, then making a wonderful recovery. You say you’re level four. 

Danny: So what I consider level four, yeah. 

Liz: Okay. 

Danny: Yeah. 

Liz: And it’s, I mean, to me, I’m like, wow, that’s like 125 percent recovered, but I’m not kickboxing.

I’m just lifting my 35 pound toddler. But yeah, really impressive stuff. I’m so glad we could chat this afternoon and I’m really glad we got to talk. And how can people find you? Are you on Instagram? 

Danny: I mainly do YouTube on ChronicToCured. It’s one word. And I’m also on Instagram. But yeah, feel free on my bio, my emails in there.

And yeah, I would say check out my YouTube videos and, I really want to appreciate, or I want to take a second to appreciate what you do for the space and taking the time out of your life to help people recover. 

Liz: Oh, wow. Thank you. That really, that means a lot. I really am honored that I got to share your story and help give hope to others and think it’s amazing that you’re growing a channel to share that hope as well.

So yeah, all right. 

Danny: Thank you for having me on. 

Liz: Yeah. Have a great rest of your day, Danny. 

Danny: Bye.

Liz: [Recorded after our interview] So I just wanted to share an update. So this interview, we recorded it in October [2024] and since then, Danny has been playing amazing golf and he recently won a professional golf tournament.

Just a friendly reminder, none of this was medical advice. We’re just sharing our stories and my heart goes out to everyone listening [or reading], sending my support and thank you for being here.